Abridgement of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856 (4 of 16 vol.)

Mr. Grundy was of opinion that the United States courts had, at present, complete jurisdiction of all criminal cases which might arise within the Indian boundary, the case cited by the gentleman from Georgia notwithstanding; but he supposed the object of this resolution was to supply the defects of the law at present in civil cases.

Mr. Poindexter had no doubt but the courts of the United States had jurisdiction of criminal offences, committed within the Indian boundary. Congress, at their first session, made provision for the punishment of offenders charged with murder, piracy, &c., committed on the high seas or without the territory of the United States. But the difficulty suggested by the gentleman from Tennessee existed. Persons who have committed petty offences and debtors go over to the Indian territory, where the law cannot reach them. He doubted whether the resolution was calculated to reach this object, and therefore wished it to lie on the table that it might be amended.

Mr. Rhea hoped he might be permitted to judge for himself whether the resolution which he had offered was calculated to accomplish the object which he had in view. His colleague had intimated that the laws, at present, extend to criminal offences, though the gentleman from Georgia had stated a case in which the judges had determined otherwise. This shows, at least, that the law wants revision, not only with respect to criminal, but civil matters. He had drawn the resolution in the most general terms.

Mr. Bibb could not conceive how the judges of the Federal Court, in the case he had cited, could have decided as they did with the law which had been referred to before them. Perhaps it might have arisen from a clause of the constitution, which directs that jurors shall be drawn from the district where the offence is committed.

The resolution was laid on the table.

Domestic Manufactures

Mr. Rhea called up for consideration the resolution which he laid upon the table yesterday, proposing an additional duty on coarse hemp and flax.

The resolution was considered, and, on motion, the words "and cotton," were added to it, by consent of the mover.

Mr. Grundy observed, that several detached resolutions for the encouragement of domestic manufactures had been offered to the House. He wished the adoption of a proposition which should include all the manufactures of the country. He hoped the present motion might lie on the table for a few days, until such a proposition could be prepared. It is, said he, an object of great magnitude, when we consider the vast sums of money which have lately been vested in establishments of this kind; and the present is a favorable moment for adopting some measures to give our manufactures countenance and support.

Mr. Rhea could not agree to the proposed postponement. He should never obtain his object, if he were to agree to one postponement after another. His colleague could, at any time, submit his proposition, without hindering the progress of the one he had introduced.

After some conversation as to the propriety of discussing this proposition in the House,

The Speaker decided, that though there is a rule of the House which says that all propositions for laying a tax shall be discussed in Committee of the Whole; this resolution, in his opinion, did not come within that rule, as it was merely an instruction to a committee to inquire into the expediency of laying an additional tax.

The motion, for laying the proposition on the table, was carried, 51 to 47.

American Seamen

Mr. Milnor rose, and observed there was no topic more important than the protection of American seamen, and yet he believed it would be acknowledged by all who have given consideration to the subject, that our laws on this subject are materially defective. The object of these laws ought to be twofold; in the first place, for the protection of bona fide American citizens, and secondly, for the prevention of the abuse of those protections by citizens of other countries not entitled to them. It will be recollected, that the act for relief of American seamen makes it the duty of the collectors to furnish certificates of citizenship in the manner therein directed; but, owing to an error of Congress, no manner is prescribed; and, of course, the collectors have been left to accept of such proof as they deemed sufficient, or to act under the directions of the Secretary of the Treasury, which, in most instances, is an unsafe way of proceeding. The penal laws of the United States provide no punishment for the crime of perjury in these cases. A recent instance, Mr. M. said, had occurred in the district which he represented. An Italian, not twenty days in the country, appeared before a notary public, claiming the rights of an American seaman. He made the necessary oaths, and produced a sponsor who swore that he was born in Baltimore. The tongue of the man detected the falsehood. The collector, with that attention to his duty for which he is so remarkable, had both seaman and sponsor apprehended. The attorney for the district looked into the case, and found the crime of perjury to be, the falsely taking an oath according to the laws of the United States; but, as the law was defective, as above stated, the offence was not perjury. The Attorney-General confirmed this opinion. The offenders, therefore, escaped punishment. He believed other amendments might be usefully made to the law on this subject. He concluded by offering the following resolution for adoption, which was agreed to:

"Resolved, That a committee be appointed to inquire and report whether any, and what amendments are necessary to the laws of the United States relating to the protection of American seamen; and that the committee have leave to report by bill or otherwise."

Mr. Milnor, Mr. Little, Mr. Reed, Mr. Bassett, and Mr. Pitkin, were appointed the committee.

Monday, November 18

Expenditure of Public Money

Mr. Randolph asked for the consideration of the resolution which he laid on the table some days ago, directing the appointment of a committee to inquire into the expenditure of public money; which, being agreed to, Mr. R. trusted there would be no difference of opinion as to the propriety of agreeing to this resolution. But, before the vote was taken, he would state to the House, by way of explanation, the result of a former inquiry. At the first session of the 11th Congress, a report of a committee was made, in part, on this subject. [This report Mr. R. read. It states that, owing to the shortness of the session, complete information on the subject could not be obtained.] As the session lasted but six weeks, the committee had no reason to complain that the information required was not obtained. An expectation was entertained that it would be given at the next session. But the committee have reason to complain that the information which was given was altogether different from that which was asked. This was represented to the departments, and a more satisfactory report was promised at the ensuing session. Mr. R. said, the course pursued at the first session, under the present President, had been the same which was adopted at the close of Mr. Adams's Administration. At the following session of Congress, the person who was appointed chairman of the committee of the first session, was unable to attend; but it was a gratification to him to find, that the subject was taken up by an honorable colleague of his, to whom the State of Virginia had been more than once indebted for the luminous reports on her fiscal concerns; but nothing was effected. To show how different the information received was, from that asked for, Mr. R. proposed to read a short letter. The object of the committee was, to know in what way the Pursers of the Navy received their money, and what was the amount of their emoluments. The answer they received, stated "that the advances made to Pursers are by warrants drawn on the Treasury, sometimes by Navy agents," &c. We inquired, said he, what were their emoluments, other than those allowed by law? Answer: "they arise from a certain percentage upon slops detailed to the seamen." It may not be amiss, said Mr. R., to inform country gentlemen that, by slops, are meant ready-made clothing, &c. It was scarcely possible to have given a more evasive answer. We asked, What were the emoluments? They answer, "a certain percentage fixed by the department;" but what that per cent. was, the committee was left to find out by instinct. It had been understood that large sums of money were advanced to these Pursers, who laid it out in slops, which they retailed to the seamen at an advance, in some instances, of twenty per cent.! This was a fact, Mr. R. said, which ought to be looked into. It was essential to the reputation of the Government, essential to its honor, indispensable to the fair fame of those who administer the finances of the United States, that abuses, such as these, should be probed to the quick, to show to the world that, if we cannot govern the great beasts, the mammoths of the forest, we can, at least, poison the rats. And whose money, asked Mr. R., is this? It is the people's money; it comes from the pockets of the people of the United States. When he spoke of this abuse of public money, he wished no gentleman to understand him as speaking of the abuse under this, that, or the other President of the United States. He considered them all as of one description of people; and it was not less necessary to guard against abuses in a country where the President is elected by the people, than in a country where he is put over them. He would dare to question the infallibility of all, and look upon all with jealousy and distrust. He wished not, however, to be charged with that mistaken opposition to the Government, which determines to exhibit abuses for the sake of doing so; or with shutting his eyes to the abuses of Thomas, while they are open to the abuses of John. Mr. R. said he had no interest distinct from the interest of his country. With respect to princes and potentates, the only favor he had to ask of them was, that they would keep their hands out of his pocket and off his person, and, to use a homely phrase, "if they would let him alone, he would let them alone."

Under these circumstances, Mr. R. asked the House if it were not necessary for a committee to be appointed to probe into this business? He wished to state, before he sat down, that he had learnt, soon after the present Secretary of the Navy came into office, the percentage of the Pursers was reduced from twenty to four or five per cent.

The resolution was unanimously agreed to, and a committee of seven appointed, as follows: Messrs. Randolph, Gold, McKim, Roberts, Johnson, Law, and Widgery.

Tuesday, November 19

Territory of Louisiana

On motion of Mr. Rhea, the House went into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for the government of the Territory of Louisiana. The bill being read by paragraphs, Mr. Fisk moved to strike out the words in the fifth section of the bill, which makes it necessary for persons to be in possession of a freehold to have a right to vote. This motion was opposed by Mr. Randolph, on principle, in a speech of considerable length, in which he advocated the freehold qualification for voters. The motion was opposed also by Mr. Rhea, as unnecessary for the attainment of the mover's object; as he stated the qualification for voters was twofold – one was the possession of a freehold, the other a residence of a year previous to the time of election.

Mr. Poindexter made a motion, which superseded that of the gentleman from Vermont, to strike out all that part of the section which defined the qualification of voters, and insert, "every free white male citizen residing in the said Territory, who shall have attained the age of twenty-one years, and paid a tax."

This amendment was debated till the usual hour of adjournment, when the committee rose without taking the question, and obtained leave to sit again.

This debate, though protracted to considerable length, embraced a very narrow question, viz: whether it is better to require voters to hold freehold property, or to suffer every man to possess the privilege of voting who has arrived to the age of twenty-one years. As already stated, Mr. Randolph took the first ground, and introduced the practice of Virginia to show that it was attended with the best effects. Mr. Fisk, Mr. Wright, Mr. Smilie, and Mr. Poindexter, took the opposite side of the question. They argued that life and liberty are superior to property – that these are dearer to the poor man than all the property of the rich. Mr. Wright said, that the State of Maryland had tried the property qualification for voting, had found it attended with bad effects, and had now abandoned it. It was formerly required that a voter should be possessed of property to the value of thirty pounds; so that if a man possessed a horse of that value, he was entitled to a vote; but if the horse happened to die before the election, he lost his privilege, which was placing the right in the horse instead of the man. As to freehold qualifications, they were evaded too by deeds made for the occasion, which were afterwards cancelled.

Mr. Randolph, in combating the principle of universal suffrage, said that it was impossible for the gentleman himself, (alluding to Mr. Smilie,) or any piping-hot member from a Jacobin club – for any disciple of Tom Paine or of the Devil– to carry this principle of equality to its full extent; for even they must exclude from its operation minors and females. He also took occasion to pronounce a strong philippic against foreigners having any part in the Government. Mr. Smilie, in his reply, paid a tribute of respect to the memory of Paine, on account of his valuable political writings, which had been considered as highly serviceable in the Revolution, and which would always be esteemed wherever the rights of man are understood, and reminded him of the foreigners who had assisted in fighting our Revolutionary battles. Mr. Randolph justified his allusion to Paine; said he was sorry the gentleman had not recollected his "Age of Reason," as well as his "Rights of Man;" and as to any services which he rendered by his writings, he thought little of them. The heroes engaged in that great cause did not need the assistance of an English staymaker. In reply, Mr. Smilie said, he never interfered with a man's religious opinion; that was a private concern, which lay between God and a man's own conscience; and as to the profession of Paine, that, he apprehended, would never lessen the value of his writings.

Wednesday, November 20

Another member, to wit, Archibald McBryde, from North Carolina, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.

Thursday, November 21

Another member, to wit, Elisha R. Potter, from Rhode Island, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.

Additional Duties

On motion of Mr. Rhea, the House took up for consideration the resolution which he had submitted some days ago, proposing to instruct the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures to inquire into the expediency of laying an additional duty on coarse manufactures of hemp, flax, and cotton.

This resolution produced a long desultory debate, which occupied the House the whole of the day, without coming to any decision upon it.

Mr. Stanford, on the ground that the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures had already this subject under consideration, moved an indefinite postponement of the resolution.

This motion was negatived, 58 to 48.

Mr. King proposed an amendment. He expressed himself friendly to the resolution of the gentleman from Tennessee, and to the encouragement of domestic manufactures generally. His amendment was in the following words:

"And also into the expediency of laying a duty on the importation of salt, with authority to report by bill or otherwise."

Mr. K. observed, that this was an article of general consumption, and its manufacture ought to be encouraged; as it was known what difficulties this country had experienced, and might again experience, when placed in a situation in which a sufficiency of salt could not be obtained. He hoped, therefore, his amendment would be agreed to.

Mr. Smilie was afraid the House was getting into a practice that would produce great trouble and confusion, by departing from the usual and settled mode of proceeding. It had always been deemed irregular, when a subject was committed, to bring it forward in the House before the committee made its report. Look at our situation, said he. A gentleman proposes a tax on manufactures of cotton, another on salt. Every gentleman has his favorite manufacture which he wishes encouraged, so that an armful of resolutions will be thrown into the hands of this committee. Mr. S. said he was friendly to the manufactures of our country, and was willing to give them every aid; but he did not wish, in doing this, to break through established rules. If gentlemen would suspend their remarks on the subject until the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures make their report, they will then have a fair opportunity of delivering their sentiments fully, and of supporting such particular manufactures as they may deem of most importance to the country. He hoped that neither the amendment nor the resolution would be agreed to.

Mr. Alston considered the gentleman from Pennsylvania mistaken as to the rule and practice of the House. If the doctrine which he maintains were correct, gentlemen might be defeated in effecting the objects which they have in view. It was only to refer a subject to a committee; and if a majority of that committee were unfriendly, and either failed to report, or reported inimically, the friends of the measure might be defeated, though there were a majority in the House in its favor. It was a common practice, Mr. A. said, to refer a subject generally to a committee, and afterwards instruct them, by resolution, as to particular branches of the subject.

Mr. Newton (the Chairman of the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures) said, the subject of manufactures was considered as being generally before them, and he knew it to be the intention of the committee to take up the matter comprehensively; and if any gentleman shall think proper to give them information respecting any particular manufacture, either orally or in writing, they will be glad to receive it. Mr. N. thought the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Alston) was mistaken, when he said that a committee had the power of defeating the purposes of members; because, whenever a report was made, it was in the power of a majority of the House to amend it, and make it just what they please.

Mr. Quincy was in favor of the amendment offered by the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. King,) and thanked him for bringing it forward. Some of his constituents, men who lived on the sandbanks of the country, were deeply interested in the manufacture of salt, and had been nearly ruined by the repeal of the duty on that article. He was friendly to a duty on salt, as it was more equal and less felt in the payment than any other, and he had always thought it strange that the duty had been repealed.

Mr. Macon thought the proposition to tax this necessary of life, at a time when it is probable we may find a difficulty in procuring it in sufficient quantity, was very ill-timed. The repeal of this duty had been called strange. He thought it would have been more strange had Congress continued the duty when the Treasury was not in need of the money arising from it. If there was any thing strange in the business, it was that there should have been any opposition to the repeal. Mr. M. agreed with the remark made by a gentleman from Massachusetts some days ago, that taxes, to be just, ought to be equal. Would a tax on salt, he asked, be equal? It certainly would not. People on the seacoast would not feel it. Their cattle would refuse it, if given to them. The interior of the country, the people from East to West, would have to bear the weight of this tax. But the gentleman from Massachusetts says the repealing of this duty ruined his constituents, who live on the sandbanks of the country. He would not consent, however, to tax the people of his part of the country, living on sandhills, to support that gentleman's sandbank constituents.

But this duty, it is said, is to be laid to encourage manufactures. Why this great cry about domestic manufactures? He thought they had already sufficient encouragement from the present situation of things. The President had recommended the subject to the consideration of the House, and he had no doubt the committee, to whom it had been referred, would do what is proper on the subject. Mr. M. wished to know for what purpose this additional duty is wanted. If, said he, it be wanted for going to war, let us know it. For his part, he had heard so much about war formerly, that he hardly thought we should get at it now.

Mr. M. said on a former occasion, when the country was in a situation something like the present, a gentleman from Virginia was so alarmed lest salt sufficient could not be had, that he proposed a bounty on its importation. What, said Mr. M., will be the effect of a proposition for taxing salt in the country? He had no doubt that, in the Southern States, it would immediately raise the price of the article at Petersburg and Fayetteville. On this account, he hoped, if the House did not mean to lay a tax on salt, that the proposition would be immediately discarded. For himself, he would sooner consent to a land or poll tax than a tax on salt.

Mr. Smilie moved a postponement of the resolution until the first Monday in February next.

This motion was debated at some length. Some who wished to vote for it, wished the proposition for a tax on salt to be disconnected with the original proposition.

Friday, November 22

Another member, to wit, Edwin Gray, from Virginia, appeared, produced his credentials, was qualified, and took his seat.

Apportionment of Representatives

On motion of Mr. Dawson, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the bill for apportioning the Representatives among the several States, according to the third enumeration.

The bill having been read, the question on filling the blanks occurred. The first was in relation to the number of inhabitants for each Representative; when

Mr. Dawson observed, that he was instructed by the committee who directed him to report this bill, to propose filling the blank with the words forty thousand; but he should himself vote against filling the blank with this number, because it would deprive the State of Rhode Island of one-half of her present Representatives; it would deprive Connecticut and Maryland each of one member, and Virginia of two. He should, therefore, be in favor of filling the blank with 37,000, as this number would not deprive any State of a Representative, and it would only increase the present number of Representatives from 142 to 180.

Mr. Dawson then moved, that the said blank be filled with the words "thirty-seven thousand;" and the question thereon being taken, was resolved in the affirmative – yeas 102, nays 18.

Mr. Dawson moved to fill the other blanks in the bill, as follows: New Hampshire, five members; Massachusetts, eighteen; Vermont, five; Rhode Island, two; Connecticut, seven; New York, twenty-five; New Jersey, six; Pennsylvania, twenty-one; Delaware, one; Maryland, nine; Virginia, twenty-two; North Carolina, thirteen; South Carolina, nine; Georgia, five; Kentucky, ten; Ohio, six; and Tennessee, six.

The bill was ordered to be engrossed for a third reading, and the House adjourned.

Monday, December 2

John Taliaferro, who has been declared entitled to a seat in this House, as one of the members for Virginia, in the place of John P. Hungerford, who has been declared not entitled to a seat in this House, appeared, was qualified, and took his seat.

Friday, December 6

Mr. Emott presented a petition of Harrison and Lewis, of the city of New York, merchants, praying permission to import from the British West India Islands, goods to the amount of debts owing to them by certain inhabitants in said islands. – Referred to the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures.